DIviders, not Uniters

[basildestiny]

You all may recall last year about this time, I was gearing up for the 2004 election. I signed up on the John Kerry website and worked really hard to promote the man that I felt was best suited for the job. I have since changed my mind and gone from a staunch Democrat to not being one. It was brought to my attention that I wasn't voting with my morals and ethics. And when I looked at my reasons for wanting to be a Democrat, it wasn't because I felt that side was right. It was because I didn't like what the other side was doing. I had taken a "them vs us" attitude and was determined to bring about some change. So I re-evaluated what was important to me. When I did that, I realized that I sided with the President. I didn't think he was a saint, but I felt he was closer to what I believed than John Kerry. At the very least, he did what he said. I could count on him to say something and do it.

That being said, I got an email this morning from John Kerry. I'm still signed up through his website. I've heard that someone even called from his campaign thanking me for my support. I wasn't at home to receive this phone call. But back to my point, the email today was entitled "Dividers, not Uniters" and spoke about how this White House was dividing the nation. Today's division was being lead by Karl Rove who classified conservatives and liberals as such: Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. This statement does not seem unfair or untrue to me today. I can understand what Karl Rove meant and true, he didn't use maybe the best phrasing. In honesty, as John Kerry says, we all united together after the attacks and were all Americans. However, 4 years later, this is what we have, exactly what Karl Rove said. And he said it nicely. He could have used harsher language to describe liberals if his goal was to divide the nation. Perhaps it was his goal, but John Kerry didn't quote the entire speech. Just quoted that part in particular to illustrate his point and I do not believe his point is illustrated.

But John Kerry takes it a step further. And says that our reaction to this should be a letter to the President requesting (if you really think that John Kerry would be satisfied with a no because it was only a request) that the President renounce Rove's claims. Then he took a step further by giving a speech in front of the Senate calling for Karl Rove's resignation. But that wasn't really what he said. He actually called for President Bush to fire Rove. Let me just ask the question that is the big pink elephant in the room for me. How is firing Rove going to unite the country? How is demanding the President renounce Rove's claims going to unite the country? Does John Kerry have any plans or ideas in mind that would unite the country?

The reasonable thing to do would be to say that Karl Rove may have used incorrect phrasing. Of course, he didn't mean ALL liberals and ALL conservatives see things this way. And it certainly wasn't anyone's initial reaction. But if you really don't think the nation is not divided something even vaguely along those lines, I challenge you to turn on the news or pick up a paper or go to a news website and see if you still feel that way.

The President certainly isn't a saint, but does he divide anymore than John Kerry?
~Bas

PS Was that any less of a collosal waste of time than Congressman Kurt Weldon's speech in front of Congress two days ago? Here is an excerpt. He was upset that he was banned from the Factor for life because he didn't call and let anyone know he wasn't going to make it and in fact the Factor had received an email saying he was 15 minutes away. It turns out that his staff had made a mistake. But instead leaving it at that, the people paid for this to be put on the Record.

Talk about spin, Mr. Speaker. So today, I sent a memo to Mr. O'Reilly explaining the facts. Now I would remind Mr. O'Reilly that the Secretary of Energy, an important meeting on nuclear issues in the former Soviet states, takes my top priority.

So Mr. Speaker, for the record, because I had some contacts from constituents or other members, I would put the summary of my statement to Mr. O'Reilly and the notes of my staff about their contact with Mr. O'Reilly's show in to the Congressional Record.

Such an over reaction.

Comments

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

As Rufus said in the movie, people died for their beliefs. Are you prepared to die for yours? Why not keep an open mind? Why not be prepared to allow that maybe, just maybe christianity doesn't have it quite right? Why not be prepared to to allow that NO religion has got it right? (again, as said in the movie)

And by saying "You banish yourself by rejecting Him and His Son." that is you judging me.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

Maybe. I believe it does because I believe a) Jesus lived. Jesus couldn't have just been a good man because he never said he was a good man. He said he was the Son of God. So he was either 1) a liar or 2) the Son of God b) So since Jesus wasn't a liar because there is no proof that Jesus was a liar, I'll have to go with the alternative that He was and still is the Son of God.

I didn't mean you specifically. I meant people in general. If you want me to judge you, just believe that I judged you. I will say that I don't judge you and love you just the same, but if my word doesn't convince you then you can believe whatever you like.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

I never said that Jesus wasn't the son of god.

And even if you did mean people in general, it is still a judgement that you, by your own admission, are not one to make.

But I am tiring of this. I do not have the patience nor the desire to continue this debate as it will continue in circles as I mentioned in one of my previous comments.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

I think I left off the rest of my thought because I am, once again, at work. Tends to be this thing I do Monday through Friday. But anyway, if Jesus is the Son of God like he said. That means that the word of God is true because Jesus said it was.

Look, I'm not judging anyone. I have said it many times that I'm not. It was a general, hypothetical statement that if people in general do that, then that's what happens. So I left off the "if," I'm sorry. This is all arguing semantics and it seems to me that we're only doing this because you want me to agree with you and I'm not going to agree with you for the plethera of reasons that I've already given.

I grow weary of telling you that I don't hate you. That I don't judge you. (Yes! There may be times where you actually catch me being judgemental, but it's not my intent and I will apologize when it happens. I'm only human.) That God loves everyone, but God doesn't love sin. I have my own sins. Should I reveal them to everyone? Where to even begin? But that wouldn't solve anything.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

I am not trying to get you to agree with me, I am trying to show you that you ARE in fact being judgemental. By applying YOUR beliefs to other people, you are judging them because YOUR beliefs say that other people's lives are not normal. You are welcome to your beliefs however I do not appreciate that you continue to make statements that ARE judgements whether you see them that way or not.

I do not think you hate me. I never said I thought you hated me so I don't know where you are getting that idea.

And if you are finding it difficult to communicate clearly while at work it may be a better idea to wait until you are not at work to respond.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

Nah, I don't find it difficult to communicate at work. At least not all the time. I just left off part of my statement because I was editing and thinking at the same time. I would have done the same thing at home.

Ok, fine. I am judging people. I am judging and determing a person to be bisexual based on their comments to me. I am judging a person to be an abortionist because they abort babies. I am then determining that sin is wrong but everyone deserves to be loved.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

I am finished with this. You refuse to understand how your statements can be offensive to those that don't share your beliefs. You are welcome to your beliefs and you are welcome to defend those beliefs however you are not welcome to force those beliefs around my life and the lives of other people and say that they are wrong.

Yes you are determining that sin is wrong but you are also saying that it is a sin to be gay and to be in a gay relationship. That is your belief but it is not mine, as I surely have made this clear, however you continue to make glib comments that, to you, are likely just off the cuff remarks but to someone else are quite offensive.

I made it perfectly clear to you that the issues surrounding us remaining friends were mostly mine and that it was something that I am working on to better myself. However I have no interest in making the effort for someone who refuses to listen to what I am saying and keeping an open mind.

I wish you luck and happiness and that you have a long and happy marriage as I have no ill will toward you but I am afraid I will be defriending you. I wish you all the luck and happiness that you deserve.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

I haven't been trying to make off the cuff comments. I've tried to be as sincere as I could be in my replies. I've even agreed that I'm judging people and ways in which I've done it. If you think I'm being glib or off the cuff say so, but I haven't tried to do it. This conversation has been on my mind for the past two days to ensure that I was as sincere and in depth as I could be, of course allowing for normal things I have to do like work, etc. But I've given it as much attention as I could and even given it time that I shouldn't have ie taken some time in between calls that didn't really belong to me.

I really don't understand why people say I am not open-minded! I can only imagine it is because I will stubborn continue to say that I believe in the word of the God and that it is 100% true. That is an ultimate truth that is not up for debate with me. Just as your belief that as long as you try hard enough it is ok. I'm not saying that everyone should believe what I believe. You can believe whatever you want, Lyn. That's fine with me. I really thought this entire discussion was based on what I believed. I don't mind if you believe that. Please do. It just seems to me that lately, and it's not just you but nearly everyone who responded to this journal, feels that I must agree with their beliefs in order to be open minded. I will listen with an open mind to anything people have to say. I don't even throw around that it is a sin to people with whom I converse on a daily basis and I know gay people. It's just when people ask me what I believe that I feel I should respond truthfully. That's all! Maybe that's why when you read what I say, it sounds like I'm doing whatever it is. I honestly don't know. I've had the most difficult time communicating with friends who were once close since I've said that I'm a Christian. It is my opinion that some of my friends who thought they were tolerant aren't as tolerant as they thought. And honestly that hurts my feelings that when I state a belief it is taken the wrong way. I don't want to convert anyone. I don't get any door prize for converting people. I just want to spread love. No one comes to God because they think his laws about clean and unclean things are awesome. I know this.

If you still feel I'm just intolerant and not listening to you, please unfriend me. It just seemed like there was something I was missing and it just occurred to me that maybe that was the issue. Since I really have nothing at all against you. Nothing! It doesn't matter to me if you are bisexual or not. I think you're a great person.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

I appreciate your candor, I do and I respect the fact that you have your beliefs and you are welcome to them. But I guess the problem comes from how you express those beliefs. In the comments to me and to other people (at least the ones that I read) there are times when you express your beliefs in such a way as to come across as well, a know-it-all, for lack of a better term. I am happy for you that you have found something to believe in and that you have such strong faith - I think that is important - however I think, there are times when things need to be rephrased. No doubt I have done this as well as lord knows I'm not perfect and I know there are a lot of things I come across as a know-it-all about. But that's something that I'm working on and I just think that perhaps there is a better way for you to impart your beliefs to those on your f-list without coming across as a know-it-all or a jesus-freak or a biblethumper - and in this instance, I use those terms with their negative associations.

I have defriended you at this point because I have to deal with my own issues surrounding this kind of thing. However, if you are still interested in reading my journal I will refriend you but I can't promise I will read your journal right now as I just want to sort through my own feelings about this situation and how to deal with it as undoubtedly I will encounter it again. In some respects I have grown up spoiled - I didn't have siblings nor was I close with any of my extended family so I have a hard time dealing with "real life" situations a lot of the time. Like I said before, I wish you no ill will and I think you are a very cool person. I just need to sort out my own issues.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

My own best friend has to sort out her feelings on this. It hurts my feelings that she can't always just be honest and say what she says. She's said some glib things to me in this long entry too.

I am sorry that things came across as know it all. I was actually researching the questions because I don't know everything. I thought people were interested! Not trying to disprove me. I'm sorry I didn't understand that, but written communication is just that way. And there aren't any smilies in here that wouldn't just be insincere looking.

I can appreciate not having dealt with a lot of people and just wanting things your way. That's fine! It's your journal! I'd love to continue reading your journal if you want to create a filter to exclude me. I've taken steps to avoid things like this in the future. Earlier this week, I made a new filter for people who could understand what I meant without the confusion. Nothing against you at all! After all, it's LJ and it's supposed to be fun! So I understand wanting to avoid confrontation or even seeming confrontation when reading it. I think things may be ok. I think things which could be taken as me doling out know it all truths have been filtered away. They aren't what people need to see because they will be taken the wrong way even if it is my journal.

I'd hate to lose you as a friend, but I understand your reasons.

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[frit.livejournal.com]

I had no plans to make a filter to exclude you. Some things I post ARE filtered just like anyone else. All I've done is re-added you so you can continue to read my journal but I just won't see yours on my f-list right now.

It hurts my feelings that she can't always just be honest and say what she says.
The thing is, at least for me, is there has just been this really radical change in the posts on your journal and that's a main reason why I didn't want to say anything before when I first read this entry. And I know a lot of people that have similar beliefs that you do and have had very bad experiences with them with regards to this same exact subject. So in the past I have just written people off if they were anti-gay in anyway. (I didn't mean that to rhyme, really) I've taken a look at myself and wondered what it is I may be missing by doing this. I have asked myself a lot of questions because honestly, being bi and supporting GLBT is a HUGE part of my life. I am not as active in it as I would like to be but it is still HUGE to me and so it is very very hard for me to be friends with someone (even if they are good people) if they have any anti-gay sentiments. But like I said, maybe I'm missing out on something so it's really something I have to work on myself.

I can't obviously speak for your best friend but I would hazard a guess that she doesn't want to hurt you, which is why she is working it out for herself. :\

Re: A different point of view perhaps

[basildestiny]

She may be working things out. But I'd really be glad to help if I could because I can tell she's working something out when there are silly things coming out. And I don't mean what you and I have discussed. You can take a look if you like or maybe not. lol Sorry!

I can definitely understand that there are a lot of people who say one thing and do another. Who claim to be Christians and then they are out there hurting people. I can definitely understand that.

And obviously I don't want you to have to create a filter, but I was just offering suggestions. That one is pretty silly, but I couldn't think of anything at the time. I do have filters on my journal now so that people won't feel so intimidated by my beliefs. I wanted to share them, but I think I need to establish a base for who the new person I am is and what to expect before I start saying what I believe. And I'm sorry about that. My fiance and I communicate through the journals so I wasn't thinking and just had the stuff as public or friends only instead of private for the two of us or what have you. Hope you aren't too upset because I had never meant to stress you out.