DIviders, not Uniters
Friday, June 24th, 2005 01:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
basildestinyYou all may recall last year about this time, I was gearing up for the 2004 election. I signed up on the John Kerry website and worked really hard to promote the man that I felt was best suited for the job. I have since changed my mind and gone from a staunch Democrat to not being one. It was brought to my attention that I wasn't voting with my morals and ethics. And when I looked at my reasons for wanting to be a Democrat, it wasn't because I felt that side was right. It was because I didn't like what the other side was doing. I had taken a "them vs us" attitude and was determined to bring about some change. So I re-evaluated what was important to me. When I did that, I realized that I sided with the President. I didn't think he was a saint, but I felt he was closer to what I believed than John Kerry. At the very least, he did what he said. I could count on him to say something and do it.
That being said, I got an email this morning from John Kerry. I'm still signed up through his website. I've heard that someone even called from his campaign thanking me for my support. I wasn't at home to receive this phone call. But back to my point, the email today was entitled "Dividers, not Uniters" and spoke about how this White House was dividing the nation. Today's division was being lead by Karl Rove who classified conservatives and liberals as such: Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. This statement does not seem unfair or untrue to me today. I can understand what Karl Rove meant and true, he didn't use maybe the best phrasing. In honesty, as John Kerry says, we all united together after the attacks and were all Americans. However, 4 years later, this is what we have, exactly what Karl Rove said. And he said it nicely. He could have used harsher language to describe liberals if his goal was to divide the nation. Perhaps it was his goal, but John Kerry didn't quote the entire speech. Just quoted that part in particular to illustrate his point and I do not believe his point is illustrated.
But John Kerry takes it a step further. And says that our reaction to this should be a letter to the President requesting (if you really think that John Kerry would be satisfied with a no because it was only a request) that the President renounce Rove's claims. Then he took a step further by giving a speech in front of the Senate calling for Karl Rove's resignation. But that wasn't really what he said. He actually called for President Bush to fire Rove. Let me just ask the question that is the big pink elephant in the room for me. How is firing Rove going to unite the country? How is demanding the President renounce Rove's claims going to unite the country? Does John Kerry have any plans or ideas in mind that would unite the country?
The reasonable thing to do would be to say that Karl Rove may have used incorrect phrasing. Of course, he didn't mean ALL liberals and ALL conservatives see things this way. And it certainly wasn't anyone's initial reaction. But if you really don't think the nation is not divided something even vaguely along those lines, I challenge you to turn on the news or pick up a paper or go to a news website and see if you still feel that way.
The President certainly isn't a saint, but does he divide anymore than John Kerry?
~Bas
PS Was that any less of a collosal waste of time than Congressman Kurt Weldon's speech in front of Congress two days ago? Here is an excerpt. He was upset that he was banned from the Factor for life because he didn't call and let anyone know he wasn't going to make it and in fact the Factor had received an email saying he was 15 minutes away. It turns out that his staff had made a mistake. But instead leaving it at that, the people paid for this to be put on the Record.
Talk about spin, Mr. Speaker. So today, I sent a memo to Mr. O'Reilly explaining the facts. Now I would remind Mr. O'Reilly that the Secretary of Energy, an important meeting on nuclear issues in the former Soviet states, takes my top priority.
So Mr. Speaker, for the record, because I had some contacts from constituents or other members, I would put the summary of my statement to Mr. O'Reilly and the notes of my staff about their contact with Mr. O'Reilly's show in to the Congressional Record.
Such an over reaction.
That being said, I got an email this morning from John Kerry. I'm still signed up through his website. I've heard that someone even called from his campaign thanking me for my support. I wasn't at home to receive this phone call. But back to my point, the email today was entitled "Dividers, not Uniters" and spoke about how this White House was dividing the nation. Today's division was being lead by Karl Rove who classified conservatives and liberals as such: Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. This statement does not seem unfair or untrue to me today. I can understand what Karl Rove meant and true, he didn't use maybe the best phrasing. In honesty, as John Kerry says, we all united together after the attacks and were all Americans. However, 4 years later, this is what we have, exactly what Karl Rove said. And he said it nicely. He could have used harsher language to describe liberals if his goal was to divide the nation. Perhaps it was his goal, but John Kerry didn't quote the entire speech. Just quoted that part in particular to illustrate his point and I do not believe his point is illustrated.
But John Kerry takes it a step further. And says that our reaction to this should be a letter to the President requesting (if you really think that John Kerry would be satisfied with a no because it was only a request) that the President renounce Rove's claims. Then he took a step further by giving a speech in front of the Senate calling for Karl Rove's resignation. But that wasn't really what he said. He actually called for President Bush to fire Rove. Let me just ask the question that is the big pink elephant in the room for me. How is firing Rove going to unite the country? How is demanding the President renounce Rove's claims going to unite the country? Does John Kerry have any plans or ideas in mind that would unite the country?
The reasonable thing to do would be to say that Karl Rove may have used incorrect phrasing. Of course, he didn't mean ALL liberals and ALL conservatives see things this way. And it certainly wasn't anyone's initial reaction. But if you really don't think the nation is not divided something even vaguely along those lines, I challenge you to turn on the news or pick up a paper or go to a news website and see if you still feel that way.
The President certainly isn't a saint, but does he divide anymore than John Kerry?
~Bas
PS Was that any less of a collosal waste of time than Congressman Kurt Weldon's speech in front of Congress two days ago? Here is an excerpt. He was upset that he was banned from the Factor for life because he didn't call and let anyone know he wasn't going to make it and in fact the Factor had received an email saying he was 15 minutes away. It turns out that his staff had made a mistake. But instead leaving it at that, the people paid for this to be put on the Record.
Talk about spin, Mr. Speaker. So today, I sent a memo to Mr. O'Reilly explaining the facts. Now I would remind Mr. O'Reilly that the Secretary of Energy, an important meeting on nuclear issues in the former Soviet states, takes my top priority.
So Mr. Speaker, for the record, because I had some contacts from constituents or other members, I would put the summary of my statement to Mr. O'Reilly and the notes of my staff about their contact with Mr. O'Reilly's show in to the Congressional Record.
Such an over reaction.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-26 11:21 pm (UTC)Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:01 am (UTC)Btw you showed us both who you really are today. A lonely man that is self daluted, that really didn't care for a friend, so what did he really want? Which is another thing that is frightening, why is a 40 year old(guessing) married man hanging out with a single women that is 25 years old?
I bet you I can guess.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:22 am (UTC)So it's ok, babe. My honor wasn't attacked. I don't think he was calling me a dog.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 03:37 am (UTC)My, what a glowing Christian attitude you are displaying. Mr. Future Husband of Janina's. Since you seem so willing to cast stones here, I feel I must point out a few things. Why is a 40 (39) year old man doing hanging out with a 25 year old single woman? Oh, I don't know--what's a 25 year old woman doing hanging out with a 39 year old man? Was Janina forced to spend time with Joe? I hardly think so. It goes both ways and I feel I should warn you to be careful while flinging stones-those walls in your glass house are awfully fragile.
The prevailing attitude here seems to be that Joe wasn't and still isn't deserving of Janina's friendship. That he failed her somehow and that he didn't "care for a friend". I count Joe among my closest friends and I can guarantee you that HE'S not the one who failed in that particular friendship. Joe is one of the most caring and sincere people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. If my friendship with Joe is any indication at all of how he treats his other friends, including you, Janina, then I have no doubt that you were never treated with anything less than respect.
Using your own standards of friendship, Janina, I must only conclude that perhaps YOU were not and still are not worthy of Joe's friendship. Friends are not disposable. You can't trade them in for something 'better' when you feel you need a change. And above all, when you do treat friends that way, it's foolish to expect them to be there when you suddenly decide to talk to them again.
I'd say that one day you might regret treating Joe this way, but I think that's probably a lost cause. What I've read here today almost smacks of brainwashing. It's like Joe's talking to a brick wall. A brick wall that's been brainwashed by another, slightly moronic brick wall.
Sad, really.
--C
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 03:57 am (UTC)Matthew is just defensive. He needn't be and I believe I even said as much in my journal. Calling someone a dog could definitely be mistaken, but he still should keep his temper in check.
I don't think I have EVER tried to trade my friends in. EVER. E-V-E-R. I have tried really hard to keep in touch with them even after I "changed" or "found something I was missing." It's something I have found difficult to do because people simply don't believe me when I say that I care and that I love them. I went out with Joe a couple weeks back to try to fix whatever had happened to our friendship. I didn't want him to be left out. I didn't want him to miss my marriage. But there just was the gap. I know part of it was from December and I'm sure part of it was just that I have changed and don't agree with him on some things.
Thanks for being a good friend to Joe.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-28 06:33 pm (UTC)I would apologize for not sharing, but the whole point was that I felt uncomfortable. And I have apologized, but it was too little too late anyway.
Nitpicking apart our friendship has probably been the lowest point of the friendship. I am sorry that it came to this. I am sorry that we could always communicate well about everything else except our friendship. I can't change it now. There's nothing that I can do now that will correct it. If I could send out a BST overnight to install it, I would.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-30 11:09 am (UTC)Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-30 05:20 pm (UTC)It was reprinted a couple of years ago in Billboard magazine in an ad reflecting Cash's opinion on the current state of country music and the music business in general: http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/Audio/cash-ad.php The ad's message, placed directly above Cash's middle finger: "American Recordings and Johnny Cash would like to acknowledge the Nashville music establishment and country radio for your support."
It's a very famous image. Look at that, you learned something new today and I bet it didn't hurt a bit! :)
And as far as me defending Joe-of course I did simply because he's my friend. I imagine he'd do the same for me if the situation were reversed. It's just what friends do.
--Joe's anonymous friend who doesn't have a LJ
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-07-04 12:33 pm (UTC)That Joe is flipping of country music? The recording industry? The self righteous?
Yeah... makes it better because its a picture from billboard magazine.
Who cares, its Joe's view on how he wants to be portrayed. Read his Journal he is flipping off everyone there with his rantings.
Great guy?... yeah right.
NEXT.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:16 am (UTC)I'm sorry, I didn't answer your questions. I've been spending time with my family today and haven't had a chance to reply to each little thing. My bad. I didn't know you wanted me to do that. I'll work on that now since I know I won't have time tomorrow.
I'm glad you have a friend that won't let you live in the past too.
I wish I had thought of the answer that Matt gave. That the media shouldn't be trusted. That was a good one. I actually didn't have a response to the conservative media because while I like to be informed by the media, I don't base my values on the media: liberal, conservative, independent or otherwise.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:16 am (UTC)Gay marriage is wrong because marriage was intended in the Bible to be between a man and a woman. Men and women have different roles in the marriage. Men are good at some things and women good at other things. Two men together or two women together destroy the family as God intended the family to be.
As to be morally righteous, I have God's morals which are the best morals as Matt said. But I don't think that I am any better than anyone since I am a sinner just like everyone else.
Me and change. I'll keep changing so I can try to match the perfect example that Jesus set for me. I'll never attain that goal and so I will always change.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:17 am (UTC)Back to adoption/abortion, I don't understand how adopting is the good Christian thing. I think it's a good thing plain and simple. It's not a Christian or nonChristian thing. But I get your point that there are children out there who need homes. I think Matt said what I couldn't put my finger on. God hasn't called me to do that. I don't even know if Matt and I could qualify to adopt unless it was a family member's child who willing gave the child to us. I don't like to tell anyone they are going to burn forever in the pits of hell because that's simply not funny and not a statement that I throw around lightly.
Gay marriage again, I don't know if anything I have to say would be practical. I'm kind of uncertain what that word means to me right now. It's kind of like the word normal. Not really sure about that one either. They don't have to burn for their sins, I don't want them to burn for their sins, I'll try not to say that. I haven't said it to anyone when I was a much younger and more outspoken Christian and I have no intention of doing so now. Satan is the only one who wins when that statement is throw around lightly. I think Matt already covered why those other parts in the Bible are outdated. Jesus outdated them. We don't give sacrifices now either because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 01:17 am (UTC)The Republican party's stance on planned parenthood and me calling myself a Republican. Sorry there. I fell into my own trap of trying to react to every statement instead of what you asked which was my opinion on the matter. I'll try to watch it in future.
I said I was looking forward to resarching the issue because I was at work and had been at work all day. I was in queue all day and did not have time for much of anything else. I was in after call work typing responses as "stress relief" from the day. We are understaffed. I haven't been a Bush supporter that long. I believe he's stood up for his morals a few times, but he still is a lesser of two evils.
The Bible was written by men inspired by God. If God can create man from dust, he can make sure his message is written down correctly. Also there is a lot of things misunderstood about the history of the Bible. I thought for certain the King James version meant that it was written by King James. He actually had nothing to do with it. But you're right. Men did write the Bible. Men like Moses, Isiah, King David, Solomon, the apostle Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, John the Baptist. Then it was transcribed through tedious work and dedication. Many people died to get it translated into English. Shakespeare preferred the Geneva Bible to the King James version.
I have no idea what our friendship was based upon actually. I was too much of a coward to say so because I used to value people liking me. I wanted people to know that I was a nice person. It didn't matter if they knew what I stood for as long as they knew that I meant well. So I didn't say things because I didn't know what you'd think of me. I liked our talks. I didn't like how things would get out of control every few months. So that's what I really felt and I'm sorry I couldn't say that to you in person however many months ago. It was more important that I was a loyal friend who would be there through arguments instead of me being true to myself or more importantly true to God.
Sorry I seemingly hid behind Matt. He's had more free time today than I have and so he put together the response he wanted to give. I didn't actually want to write a response, but then I didn't know your intention was to see what I believed. Hope this last comment has helped.
I'll look back on these posts and realize that I need to stop worrying what counterarguments are going to be given. I'll remember that I need to just say what I mean and wait for follow up questions if needed.
God is infinite and doesn't need to take time out to provide money for my wedding. He's provided so much! Including money for the wedding and the air I breathe.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 12:21 am (UTC)If our country wasn't founded on Christian beliefs, then why are we removing them?
As her soon to be husband it is my duty to defend her honor. When you speak about her in a disrespectful way be ready for me to be her "Official Spokesperson."
And as you saw from her other posts, she forms her own opinons about things. Thats why I love her, intelligent. She thinks and prays instead of blindly following worldly views. A strong Christian Women.
Also she has chosen to "parrot" God, not me.
Althought I don't agree with your stances I still value your opinion, specialy when the are not self indulgent.
I really hate that you could not still be friends with Janina, she is a wonderful person and a blessing to be around. I am really concerned about you, you seem to be very intolerent of Christian Beliefs. I am sorry if someone called themself a Christian and did something bad towards you. I feel allot of Hate coming from you. For that I also am sorry you were mistreated. I really hope you change for the better.
Thanks,
Matt
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 04:39 am (UTC)Thomas Paine, what role did he play as a founding father?
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/paine.html
After American independence had been won, Paine played no part in the establishment of the new republic. Instead, he busied himself trying to invent a smokeless candle and devising an iron bridge.
As for his book, Age of Reason. Its his explanation of worship and God. I would therefore point out that this gentlemen may had certian view points that initated people revolting the kings power in france, he did not have any role in establishing the United States, I would also point out that he isn't a founding father. Just another lost man trying to make his own rules.
And I do want to apologize for one thing I thought you were calling Janina a dog therefore I wasn't going to let that happen. She explained to me that its something she said about herself.
And one more thing, to be honest I don't trust your intentions that you had with Janina when you new her. I guess it could be that I am not sure of your moral basis on views like sex and the promise of marriage. I also apologize for calling you age 40, as I was guessing.
The reason its a problem is that she is going to look at you as a friend, but most men your age, that don't have any moral foundation are looking for more than just friendship. But then again I could be wrong. Although I already know the truth in this matter.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 07:53 pm (UTC)http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
The early founding fathers hated the Catholic Church. For good reason. I agree in our first amendment. To be Christian also meant to be Catholic before the US was made. Later on serveal of our founding fathers helped start and establish different types of christian churches thats where you have different denominations of Christians.
I really hope you will read that site above. Its really great because it shows you how much people change from baby Christians (founding fathers started out) to mature Christians (establishing the US).
I know years ago I could have been proubly been classified as a Deist. I was running from Jesus teachings. I know I would hate to be quoted and remebered for the stupid stuff I have said.
Oh and btw it really hurts me that you honestly believe Thomas Paine's quote "What is is the Bible teaches us?" - Honestly if he was so smart why would he say that. He knows that the bible is also a historcal document and that women were being raped, murdered before the bible was even written. Sounds to me like he really has a grudge.(btw he didn't help, to say because his book was published that he owned the idea is ridiculus and a stretch of the truth.)
In fact if it wasn't for the sins above.. why would we need a bible, we would still be in the Garden of Eden talking to God in person.
But hey thats why this country is still great, free speech. I may disagree with you, but we are both entitled.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 08:05 pm (UTC)So Thomas Jefferson was a christian but I have no idea of the denomination.
"doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend all to the happiness of man." -Thomas Jefferson
I agree with is statment, I don't remember calling Thomas Jefferson sad, I did say he is misquoted all the time.
I am taking all the info , Deist, Christian, everything. And per the Declaration of Independence, our laws, they were all based on Judea Christian belief.
Only problem is if you weren't Catholic, then you were Deist.. there wasn't a Baptist or Methodist ect.
Orthodox Christians are catholic, and they have tons of dos and don'ts that not really biblical in nature.
I am pretty sure that you are not going to read my comments with an open mind, we are pretty hard headed.
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-27 08:15 pm (UTC)Thats what I am reading.. I hope that has your seal of approval, its the entire Jefferson Bible and its in its order. I would also ask you to read it also.
He may not have the exact Christian beliefs I have, but I think it would be a good book to read. If he truly is a Deist whats it going to hurt?
Re: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Thomas Jefferson
Date: 2005-06-30 11:44 am (UTC)